Hi Simon, it was great to meet you in person at RS2014, having of course met on Skype previously. This is an interesting project and covers a topic that we system specifiers are interested in.
It seems to me that no matter how much sound level I provide for, systems in use are almost always overdriven. And a lot worse than the CD recording in the video in your blog. Frequently, I listen to this with uncalibrated ear defenders on, and at the lower sound levels reaching my ears the true horror of the sound coming out is clear to hear. It is credit to d&b and others that their protection and heat dissipation systems keep the loudspeakers reliably alive. But sometimes I feel that my time designing these systems carefully is fruitless, since care with audible quality is squandered more commonly than not.
An experience sitting at the mix position for a day at the Montreux Jazz Festival was an eye-opener for me. Or should I say ear-opener. Of 6 acts performing, using the same house loudspeakers for all, one band had a superb sounding system, two had mediocre systems, one scraped through and two were garbage. The differences were entirely due to these factors as far as I could tell.
1 Sound levels on stage overwhelming the house, so that house mix could do nothing except try turning the sound up. Asking, I was told that the jazz group "demanded these levels on stage". 2 Infrasubs upward masking all of lows and mids, to the complete eclipse of the house sound from the bass player getting off on the energy on stage. In the house he sounded like a bowl of jello (or jelly in UK). This again was a player demand during a funk jazz rock performance. 3 Show producers just demanding more level in the house until the sound system techs refused, with the warning that failure was likely during the show if they pushed things further.
My impression was that sheer energy or power was what was sought. A physical effect as much as an aural one. In some cases, this masked rather poor playing on stage that could be clearly heard with ear defenders on. Speaking to mix engineers who I know are truly expert, they confirm routine management or band demands that prevent them delivering the sound they would like to.
So, your study into distortion needs to partly consider or at least mention some of these effects if they are commonly agreed and not just my bias toward music being about dynamic variation, rhythm, harmony, texture and melody. At the sound levels used, the subtlety of the ear is almost totally lost, but then perhaps that has also not been studied at the levels used.
There is a reason for this, that makes your study particularly difficult. Lab based testing at levels of 105dBSPL or more are well above "safe" levels of hearing. But tests that try to scale results from lower sound level evaluation of audible effects may be doomed to failure.
So, how does one get to the real things that d&b and other pro-sound manufacturers are interested in? That involves real-world sound reinforcement or playback environments. Perhaps your study should include some consideration of DJs and how they plan their sequence of tracks, sound levels and tempos and why similarly with bands. Is a survey possible for crowds attending a series of performances of the same band at one venue (several performances of the same show at the same venue - to help stablise the situation well enough before the final "take"), where the sound can be recorded and measured at a fixed location(s), together with the audio arriving into and out of the power amplifiers (at different frequency bands). Then a spectrally aware level and distortion analysis.
Of course this is a particular project for your degree and your tutors have particular goals in mind. Such work might not be able to be even considered for now. But with d&b bridging the permission gap between the researcher, sound company, performers and producer - it might be possible, given anonymity of the acts themselves. The last is difficult to achieve since music is the medium and probably playback of the audio recorded at the various stages would be a part of the post-performance evaluation and presentation of the work.
Hi Simon, it was great to meet you in person at RS2014, having of course met on Skype previously. This is an interesting project and covers a topic that we system specifiers are interested in.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that no matter how much sound level I provide for, systems in use are almost always overdriven. And a lot worse than the CD recording in the video in your blog. Frequently, I listen to this with uncalibrated ear defenders on, and at the lower sound levels reaching my ears the true horror of the sound coming out is clear to hear. It is credit to d&b and others that their protection and heat dissipation systems keep the loudspeakers reliably alive. But sometimes I feel that my time designing these systems carefully is fruitless, since care with audible quality is squandered more commonly than not.
Sam Wise 21 Oct 2014 - see next post for more
An experience sitting at the mix position for a day at the Montreux Jazz Festival was an eye-opener for me. Or should I say ear-opener. Of 6 acts performing, using the same house loudspeakers for all, one band had a superb sounding system, two had mediocre systems, one scraped through and two were garbage. The differences were entirely due to these factors as far as I could tell.
ReplyDelete1 Sound levels on stage overwhelming the house, so that house mix could do nothing except try turning the sound up. Asking, I was told that the jazz group "demanded these levels on stage".
2 Infrasubs upward masking all of lows and mids, to the complete eclipse of the house sound from the bass player getting off on the energy on stage. In the house he sounded like a bowl of jello (or jelly in UK). This again was a player demand during a funk jazz rock performance.
3 Show producers just demanding more level in the house until the sound system techs refused, with the warning that failure was likely during the show if they pushed things further.
My impression was that sheer energy or power was what was sought. A physical effect as much as an aural one. In some cases, this masked rather poor playing on stage that could be clearly heard with ear defenders on. Speaking to mix engineers who I know are truly expert, they confirm routine management or band demands that prevent them delivering the sound they would like to.
So, your study into distortion needs to partly consider or at least mention some of these effects if they are commonly agreed and not just my bias toward music being about dynamic variation, rhythm, harmony, texture and melody. At the sound levels used, the subtlety of the ear is almost totally lost, but then perhaps that has also not been studied at the levels used.
There is a reason for this, that makes your study particularly difficult. Lab based testing at levels of 105dBSPL or more are well above "safe" levels of hearing. But tests that try to scale results from lower sound level evaluation of audible effects may be doomed to failure.
So, how does one get to the real things that d&b and other pro-sound manufacturers are interested in? That involves real-world sound reinforcement or playback environments. Perhaps your study should include some consideration of DJs and how they plan their sequence of tracks, sound levels and tempos and why similarly with bands. Is a survey possible for crowds attending a series of performances of the same band at one venue (several performances of the same show at the same venue - to help stablise the situation well enough before the final "take"), where the sound can be recorded and measured at a fixed location(s), together with the audio arriving into and out of the power amplifiers (at different frequency bands). Then a spectrally aware level and distortion analysis.
Of course this is a particular project for your degree and your tutors have particular goals in mind. Such work might not be able to be even considered for now. But with d&b bridging the permission gap between the researcher, sound company, performers and producer - it might be possible, given anonymity of the acts themselves. The last is difficult to achieve since music is the medium and probably playback of the audio recorded at the various stages would be a part of the post-performance evaluation and presentation of the work.
Sam Wise 21 Oct 2014